| Written by: world-traveler on 6/8/99 at 9:38PM. hey there i was just wondering if anyone could provide details, such as the dates and the performers, and all necessary info such as obtaining tickets, etc... thanks chainsaw-ers. (im sure this was already posted, but i didnt catch it the first time round. sorry) | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Reply from: kisha on 6/8/99 at 9:40PM. all i know is that the Butchies and the Murmurs are supposed to be playing. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Reply from: notyrgrrrl on 6/8/99 at 9:41PM. and tribe 8 | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Reply from: gothie on 6/8/99 at 9:44PM. i didnt know that! now it is my duty to appear there. when is this? how many days? i'm sorry but i'm still new to this. please do elaborate, specially the ones who have gone to the festival. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Reply from: notyrgrrrl on 6/8/99 at 9:49PM. i believe it is august 10th-15th, but im not certain. whatever the case, im still gonna make the massive drive all the way from jersey. fun. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Reply from: kisha on 6/8/99 at 10:05PM. Oh how i wish i could go! it blows being broke:( | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Reply from: Gothie on 6/8/99 at 10:11PM. I'm broke too, but there's always a way Kisha :-) Augusts is still a couple months away. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Reply from: kisha on 6/8/99 at 10:44PM. True dat, Gothie. I still have a birthday coming up. Maybe i'll get some cash. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Reply from: Gothie on 6/8/99 at 10:52PM. grrl whens your bday? | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Reply from: maryMACK on 6/8/99 at 10:58PM. is there a website addy? | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Reply from: kisha on 6/8/99 at 11:01PM. Gothie:it's june 25. i'll be the big 2-3 I'm such an old fart. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Reply from: Gothie on 6/8/99 at 11:02PM. no you're not. I wish i were 23 instead of 17. I'll try and remember your bday. wait for a card :) | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 6/8/99 at 11:04PM. http://www.michfest.com | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Reply from: kisha on 6/8/99 at 11:11PM. Aww, thank you Gothie *mwah* hehe, i'm the opposite, i wish i was 17 again. I just got a "why don't you act 23 instead of 13" lecture this weekend. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Reply from: gothie on 6/8/99 at 11:14PM. wanna trade? | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Reply from: gothie on 6/8/99 at 11:18PM. what's yer e-addy, i need it for the card. I know i'll forget if i dont do it now. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Reply from: kisha on 6/8/99 at 11:26PM. Here we go! | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Reply from: gothie on 6/8/99 at 11:28PM. thanks a bunch. and good nite. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 6/9/99 at 5:56AM. top | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Reply from: mz fitt on 6/9/99 at 6:38AM. this will be my first time at the fest. i cant waaaaiiitttt! | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 6/9/99 at 6:53AM. isn't MMWF transphobic though? | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Reply from: Dog Pound on 6/9/99 at 6:55AM. yup. Transphobic. They've gotten better, but I still wouldn't go. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Reply from: BethX on 6/9/99 at 7:10AM. ew. michigan. yuck. it's funny how all the queer rights people (and bands) go to a place that is only supportive of "the right kind" of queers. i think i'll schedule some root canal surgery that week in silent protest. one side note: actually more of a question. how do people who normally wave the queer rights banner justify their attendance at michigan? | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 6/9/99 at 11:12AM. top | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 6/9/99 at 11:15AM. good question beth. glad im 67% man and wouldnt want to attend regardless. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 6/9/99 at 1:29PM. gosh this is such a touchy subject and i still feel strange about the exclusion. i will say that i went several years ago and i had the most amazing experience. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Reply from: BethX on 6/9/99 at 1:34PM. If you feel strange about the exclusion, then why did you go? | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 6/9/99 at 1:40PM. the exclusion wasn't an issue when i was in high school in michigan (late 80's/early 90's). i over-looked the transphobia back then because i was trans-ignorant. now it bothers me. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Reply from: prev. anon on 6/9/99 at 1:41PM. i meant an issue to me | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Reply from: BethX on 6/9/99 at 1:52PM. ok, but would you still go? And to the folks who are planning on going (including the bands), why are you going? | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 6/9/99 at 1:58PM. perhaps to protest it from the inside, since i want to see the bands and be in that sort of environment for a week anyways. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 6/9/99 at 2:00PM. yea, cause music comes before any kinda phobia. that's bullshit | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Reply from: brenda star on 6/9/99 at 2:20PM. I don't agree with the anti-trans policy but I am going. My family is visiting relatives in Michigan that exact week and going to this beats hanging out w/ my mom's relatives (who include my Great Uncle George, a Catholic priest, and my Uncle George, a hateful wacko who tapes Rush Limbaugh religiously and who tells me that I'm a demon.) I'm also planning on doing a feature for my zine on the anti-trans policy of the festival and the controversy surrounding it. Maybe I'm just rationalizing, but I would honestly like to cover it from both sides. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Reply from: brock on 6/9/99 at 2:29PM. i think it's funny that all you pc people or whatever (and all these bands! butchies, tribe 8, etc) are all supporting something that has such stupid discriminatory policies. ah well. maybe i'm just crazy. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 6/9/99 at 2:33PM. i dunno, but this is really making me rethink my summer plans. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 6/9/99 at 2:35PM. so maybe we should e-mail tribe 8 and the butchies and whoever and ask them....maybe they'll change their minds. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 6/9/99 at 2:54PM. "Michigan... the incredibly clear night skies. A place to go to get your opinions stretched and your senses rocked. A community of womyn. Freedom and safety. Diversity. The energy. Fun, animated, raw, sexy, thoughtful and provocative. The flavor? Sweet, wild, spicy and smooth. The experience? Truly extraordinary..." Diversity?? | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 6/9/99 at 2:56PM. well, you know, there are other differing groups than trans and nontrans. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 6/9/99 at 2:59PM. For me personally, the value of the whole Michigan experience outweighs my diagreement with the anti-trans policy. but I would like to know why these usually trans supportive bands are supporting it. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 6/9/99 at 3:11PM. "The flavor? Sweet, wild, spicy and smooth." bwahahahahahahaha!!! i think i'm gonna pass out here. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Reply from: BethX on 6/9/99 at 3:12PM. well, here is another question. if they didn't allow bisexual and straight women in would you still support it. personally, i think anyone who is going to it knowing full well they exclude trans people, is full of shit. all this "welllll, they have neat bands. *pout* i know!!! i'll go to protest it from the *inside*" crap is a cop out. Any band that plays it, goes on my immediate "heckle the shit out of them when they come to philly" list. Anyone who goes to this and doesn't girlcott (see, i'm even using nice PC terms too) it from the outside along with the rest of the women who aren't aloud to attend is a fucking hypocrite. And that goes the same for any band that plays there. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 6/9/99 at 3:14PM. so why don't you fucking bother to find out what their reasoning is? maybe they never thought of that before. "oh well, that means they're stupid, so they deserve to die." i hadn't even thought of this perspective until this post, and i'm ripping up the check i just wrote them. happy? | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 6/9/99 at 3:15PM. beth, will people be girlcotting/t*cotting it from outside, as in the physical outside, the gate? will there actually be a protest? honest question. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 6/9/99 at 3:16PM. i'd still support it if no straight or bi women were allowed. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Reply from: BethX on 6/9/99 at 3:16PM. of course, brock! Everyone knows it's tribe 8 before human rights, anyday. Besides, they're *just* a bunch of *gasp* weirdo trannies. Human rights? They don't need no steenkin' human rights. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 6/9/99 at 3:17PM. yeah, why don't all of the people who were planning on going still go, but don't actually go in. if you haven't got your tix, don't get them. we could have a tranny campout nearby and protest their shit. i'm up for it. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Reply from: BethX on 6/9/99 at 3:22PM. anon 1. their reasoning is (and i would have to say that i know a tad more about it than you since I did this as a paper for a womans studies class) is that M to F trannies are men. No men allowed. No matter what their reasoning is, it's still fucked up. anon 2. they've been protesting it since Nancy Burkholder got ejected back in like 89 or so. She was threatened with physical violence by the security team. god i love safe spaces. anon 3. would you still go if it was a whites only event as well? Even so, that's a mighty fucked up attitude you're taking there, if you don't mind me saying. how do you justify that to yourself? wow, i guess i had some folks here pegged right. Gimme my human rights, but fuck the rest of the people. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Reply from: brock on 6/9/99 at 3:22PM. well, yeah, and what IF it was a festival for lesbians only. and no bi/straight women or trannies, even if they were lesbians were allowed? i think this is a perfect example of the hypocrisy of so many people here. if it doesn't personally affect you, who cares? and, most importantly, if it doens't affect you AND you get to go see ~~**grrrrrl bandz**~~ while excluding those fucked up trans people, DOUBLE who cares! | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Reply from: BethX on 6/9/99 at 3:23PM. there is a tranny campout across from the main gate. been there for years. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Reply from: brock on 6/9/99 at 3:23PM. oops, beth just said that. ok hi. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 6/9/99 at 3:24PM. thanks for sharing that in the first place, beth. (about the tranny campout) | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Reply from: BethX on 6/9/99 at 3:28PM. this is pretty fucked up too: Brother Sun Boys Camp is an overnight camp with a program of outings, crafts, cookouts, music and sports for boys aged 4-10. Located in a mix of forest and meadow, the camp offers a fun, welcoming and secluded area for boys while preserving womyn’s space in all other Festival areas. Please respect the requirement that all boys 4 and over camp in Brother Sun for the week, and be aware that we hold strictly to the upper age limit of 10. now, i dunno about you, but what better thing could a boy 4-10 see than a women run festival? i don't think a. i could leave my 4 year old alone with someone i don't know and b. i could justify to a kid, "hi, mommy is leaving you here with strangers. i'm sorry, i can't take you with me, because you'll intrude on womens space." yeah, real good way to raise a feminist little boy. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 6/9/99 at 3:33PM. bethx, your arguments seem conflicting. do you want the womyn-only space to include trans or do you argue against the idea of a women-only space? | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Reply from: BethX on 6/9/99 at 3:34PM. i'm going to check and see if they are still enforcing this policy. last i head a year or so ago it was still in effect. it may have changed. shit, i kinda wanna go now. after all, tribe 8 is playing. yes brock, that was the dripping sound of sarcasm. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 6/9/99 at 3:34PM. somehow it seems to me that a boys camp run by a bunch of women would be a good way to raise a feminist boy. do you expect moms to take their kids every single place they go, women-only or not? | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 6/9/99 at 3:36PM. a good mom would not bring a small child to that, anyway,she would wait until the kid was older so that they don't have to stay in a camp all day. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Reply from: BethX on 6/9/99 at 3:39PM. i have no problem with women only space for the most part. i do however have a problem with the idea of a. leaving my kid behind with anyone i don't know and b. not giving a young boy (and sexism when you look at it is mostly a male problem) a look into a perfect example of the dynamic of women working together to accomplish something. I think it's incrediblly short-sighted. thank goodness i have a little girl, eh? | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Reply from: BethX on 6/9/99 at 3:41PM. I'd certainly bring a boy to a fesival, if only for the day. I think it would be a great learning experience. if i could get in i'd bring my daughter to it now (she's 3). | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 6/9/99 at 3:42PM. i do however have a problem with the idea of a. leaving my kid behind with anyone i don't know you don't have to bring your kid | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 6/9/99 at 3:43PM. will you be camping out beth? | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 6/9/99 at 3:46PM. well what do they do with the kids all day at the camp? probably teach them decent ideas, since it's probably run by all women. would you also have a problem sending your kid away to summer camp? | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 6/9/99 at 3:49PM. decent as in nonsexist. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 6/9/99 at 3:58PM. :i don't think a. i could leave my 4 year old alone with someone i don't know: wuhhh? ever heard of day camp? its a common activity for young children. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 6/9/99 at 4:08PM. beth, I find it interesting that here you're waving the trans rights flag when you so frequently argue the case of biological transsexualism, discredit non-transsexual transpeople, and say that you resent the label of transgender. hypocrite, much? | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Reply from: BethX on 6/9/99 at 4:19PM. considering the person that was originally ejected was a transsexual, no. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Reply from: brenda star on 6/9/99 at 4:26PM. After reading this post and hearing your arguments I really don't think I'm going to go. Before I had only a vague inkling of their anti-trans policy; I guess I thought they just preferred the festival to be trans-free, but in kind of a don't ask don't tell way. But learning that they kicked someone out, threatening her with violence, is extremely disturbing. This post exemplifies something I really like about Chainsaw, that there are so many informed people knowledgable on issues who aren't afraid to call people on their shit. So thanks for calling me on my shit:) | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 6/9/99 at 4:42PM. "it's funny how all the queer rights people (and bands) go to a place that is only supportive of "the right kind" of queers." It's funny how you support equality for only "the right kind" of transgendered people. According to you, how exactly should the festival change it's policy? To include only post-op MTF transsexuals? | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Reply from: caseycultist on 6/9/99 at 4:53PM. okay... i would feel very uncomfortable leaving a four year old with strangers, women or not. at daycamp or preschool, the counselors/teachers have background checks and references and usually some kind of credential and experience with kids. they both are MUCH more stable environments. and for those of you who made snide comments of "leave your kid at home" or "you don't have to bring your kid" obviously don't have children. this is a long event. not everyone can find a reliable sitter, or afford it. not everyone has a current partner who can babysit. and i personally think that such a "woman-friendly" event would understand that some of us breeders accidentally pop out little boys about 50% of the time and would maybe like to have our sons (under ten years of age... i mean, how non-threatening is that?) by our sides where we can keep an eye on them and they feel safe. i also wonder why such a "progressive" environment would ban transexuals. do they ban drag kings who like looking butch but still ID as women? do they ban hermaphrodites? what about androgynes who ID as neither? where do they draw the arbitrary line? and i REALLY want to know what the bands think about this. (tribe 8... wrong bathroom? wrong fucking festival!) | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 6/9/99 at 4:53PM. hey, to those people who have gone before, how did you deal with walking by those trannies every morning? | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 6/9/99 at 4:55PM. speaking of the bands, do they, like, camp out like everyone else? | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 6/9/99 at 4:56PM. someone shd email the bands and ask them how they justify it | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 6/9/99 at 5:09PM. casey: how do you know that the women running the boys camp at michigan also haven't had background checks and are trained in dealing with small children? | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Reply from: brock on 6/9/99 at 5:12PM. i think i might email the butchies and ask them how they justify it. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 6/9/99 at 6:15PM. *LOL* at BethX accusing *anyone* of being a hypocrite. I'm all for your exclusion, beth. I have no problem banning transphobic assholes from anywhere. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Reply from: BethX on 6/9/99 at 6:54PM. this has little do do with my personality (or lack thereof). stop ignoring the issue. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 6/9/99 at 7:31PM. PLEASE write to the festival directly and get the history and policies from them. This post is full out right lies and ancient rumors. Do your research and don't trust fake people with fake names on a message board that is fastly becoming hostile and boring. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Reply from: BethX on 6/9/99 at 7:57PM. a. Nancy Burkholder was expelled in 1991. See: http://www.camprehoboth.com/issue08-08-97/pastout.htm b. Everyone knows i'm a real person. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Reply from: BethX on 6/9/99 at 8:00PM. This is a selection from an article in Southern Voice, 7 August, 1997. Reprinted without permission. History of the Michigan Womyn's Music Festival by David Blanco ...The most recent-- and perhaps the most wrenching-- major debate has been over the participation of post-operative male-to- female transsexuals at the event. One such transsexual, Nancy Burkholder, participated clandestinely at the 1990 festival. When she openly shared her story the following year [this is erroneous-- she didn't share her story-- Dallas], security guards escorted her from the premises. A "camp Trans" was set up outside the gates of the festival [several years later-- Dallas] to protest the "womyn-born-womyn-only" policy adopted in 1993 and some women were spotted with "Friend of Nancy" buttons. But festival organizers continued to defend the policy. As one woman put it, "It's the dick in their heads I don't want here." | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 6/9/99 at 8:07PM. bethx, i don't see the "dick in their heads" quote in the article | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Reply from: BethX on 6/9/99 at 8:08PM. I <3 the lesbian avengers.... http://www.well.com/user/barmitag/mich.htm now, anon, do you wish to retract your statement? | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Reply from: BethX on 6/9/99 at 8:10PM. i'm sorry, let me get you the url for that one. http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/4766/gender.html | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 6/9/99 at 8:18PM. ignoring the issue, beth? fuck you. stop ignoring your own bigotry. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Reply from: 8:07 on 6/9/99 at 8:19PM. i wasn't attacking you, beth, i was just confused by the quote | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 6/9/99 at 8:20PM. Sharon Bridgforth, Sister Spit(Sini Anderson, Michelle Tea, Jane LeCroy, Silas Flipper, Nomy Lamm, Kassy Kayiatos, Anna Joy Springer, Beth Lisick, Tara Jepsen, Ali Liebegott, Tarin Towers), Tret Fure & Cris Williamson, Michelle Malone, Dar Williams, Tribe 8, The Murmurs, The Butchies Anyone know how or if these people or bands have been trans-accepting or transphobic in the past? What are their views on trans? | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 6/9/99 at 8:24PM. has any band ever publicly refused to play michigan because of this? | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Reply from: BethX on 6/9/99 at 8:25PM. anon there is a major difference between a. my biological discussions, b. my discussions on basic fucking human rights and c. my just trying to get q-tip to think a little and maybe tweak her nose from time to time. If any transgendered folks want to freaking go, hey *I'M ALL FOR IT*, shit, if any non-male identified person wants to go, cool. whatever. go for it. i support them 110% fucking percent. It doesn't mean that I have to agree on the fucking aetiology of gender difference, does it????? ya gimboid. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Reply from: ummmmm on 6/9/99 at 8:37PM. i didn't see "womyn-born-womyn" anywhere on the festival page. is the policy still standing? if they changed the policy, would you go? | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 6/9/99 at 8:53PM. The Virginia women's music Festival The Ohio Lesbian Festival (Columbus) what are these festivals' policies on trans, because the Butchies are playing them too. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 6/9/99 at 9:17PM. this is distrubing. everyone stop making execuses and admit bethx is right. her other views have nothing to do with this biogted festival. STOP APOLOGIZING AND DONT GO TO MICHIGAN. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 6/9/99 at 9:19PM. yeah *apologetic* compromising sellouts are awful. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 6/9/99 at 9:38PM. just for the record, i'm the anon who's pissed at beth, and i don't like the festival either, and i'm not going. i'm not attacking beth because i'm trying to justify going to a transphobic festival, i'm attacking her because she's an ass. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 6/9/99 at 10:02PM. I'm seeing dick in some post-er's heads here. Why do men, even those who decided to become women, think they deserve access to EVERYTHING anyway? | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 6/9/99 at 10:15PM. so you dont think beth has a right to acess because she happened to be born with an incorrect organ? i hate the springer "its only about the penis" tran-notion. thats not science, thats bullshit. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Reply from: BethX on 6/9/99 at 10:31PM. a. i'm not a man. the US State Department even says so. So, Pbbbt! b. yeah, well, I may be an ass, but in this case I'm an ass who is right. c. stop trying to justify your bigotry. if qtip or some other tranny on this board had supplied the information I have, you'd be running out of the wood work trying to stick your nose up their ass as far as you could. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Reply from: BethX on 6/9/99 at 10:34PM. if they changed the policy, if i had the time and money, hell yes i would go. I'd be supporting a women run venture, getting to see tribe 8, and i picking up some crunchy granola lesbian pottery. hell yeah. Besides, I'd want to work night shift security. woohoo. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 6/9/99 at 10:36PM. so you do want to go??? what happened to the "michigan yuck!" and scheduling a root canal comment? obviously you see the reasons TO go, and admit you would if you could ..so why the fuck are you dissing those who DO want to go? | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Reply from: BethX on 6/9/99 at 10:41PM. duh. because chainsaw people going to an event that discriminates *ESPECIALLY* when the people here are supposed to be "trans-friendly" is "ew, yuck". michigan would no longer be "ew, yuck" if they did not have such a blatantly discriminatory stance. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Reply from: q-tip on 6/9/99 at 11:36PM. "c. my just trying to get q-tip to think a little and maybe tweak her nose from time to time." haha. Oh yeah, you've been so enlightening. I'm so curious as to why you keep bringing me up and attacking me. I personally couldn't give a damm what your beliefs are, you could think that the earth is flat and we're the decendents of an alien race and I would not care. You, on the other hand, cannot seem to leave alone the fact that I don't argee with you. I don't understand this. You seem to care *way* too much. Is it vindictivness? What? I am not in the subject of this post, obviously, so why even bring me up? I know you think I'm an "idiot" or whatever. So? I got your point, I don't care, let's move on, it's getting really old. I think the question put forth by one of the anons was a very valid one. What kind of trans people should be allowed in the festival? Post op, pre-op, or even non-woman identified but non-transsexual bio-males? What is the age limit for little boys? Shouldn't you learn more about the boy's camp before you attack it? This festivals trans polocies are seriously fucked up. It's like that because of the time period in which it was founded. A bunch of sepratist 70's feminists made this festival, and those same feminists were extreemly trans phobic (note the feminist writings of the era). Unfortunatly, those same 70's feminists are still running it. Tribe 8 was part of it in 94, people at the festival were protesting them, and trying to keep SM out of the festival. I don't know the bands justifications for going there. I *know* that tribe 8 and the butchies are trans supportive. I guess maybe instead of abandoning the festival because of the bigotry they want to make a showing there to create pressure to get out of this 70's rut and move into the feminist queerness of the 90's. I don't know if I agree with that or if it's the best way of doing it. I figure I've seen all of the bands that I like that are playing there and I'll see them again. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Reply from: another anon... on 6/9/99 at 11:44PM. Just email the festival people, harrass them for the information, go yourself and find out, and when you people do-settle this fucking arguement and discuss. sheesh DONT JUST SIT THERE AND SAY "OH MAYBE YOUR RIGHT, IM NOT GOING ANYMORE" cant you people decide for your selves anymore. :0/ | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 6/10/99 at 6:06AM. here's kind of an interesting article about tribe 8 and michigan, i must say i'm quite disappointed in them after reading this post. http://www.addict.com/issues/1.03/Features/Riot_Grrrls/index.html | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Reply from: Dog Pound on 6/10/99 at 6:18AM. I wish people would stop with the other spellings of the word WOMAN or WOMEN. It drives me nuts. Fuck Michigan, start your own fest. it's been done before. And I think it's time for something new. I myself don't want to go hang out with a much of women loving women who are anti tranni anti SM and want to protest and complain about everything. I'll supply the crunchy pottery... | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Reply from: BethX on 6/10/99 at 6:43AM. from that article: Self-identifying as queers, the band also support the trans-sexuals who camped in protest outside the Michigan grounds this year. Hence their arrival in Michigan with a chip on their shoulders and an agenda in hand. "There's a lot of fascism going on in a place where people are talking about women's love," Breedlove said. "If you want to go out in the world and demand from the mainstream and heterosexual society to have your right to do women in bed, to do your sister side-by-side thing, then you'd better allow the same freedoms to your other sisters, who might not necessarily choose to do the sister, side-by-side, touchy-feely thing." i still wish they would boycott the thing. *That* would send a real message. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Reply from: Maude E. on 6/10/99 at 7:43AM. 1) A bunch of "other" gendered people who at least partly i.d. as women and who take testosterone go. Some do it cuz they love it there, others to make change. 2) Separatist space, by definition, discriminates. Sep. space happens--whether it's a masonic lodge or a women-only e-mail list or a music festival. I happen to think women-only separatist space is a great thing (though the "safe" space concept is highly misleading). I just wish they would start calling themselves the "Womyn-Born-Womyn Music Festival" up front if that is their REAL separatist space policy. 3) I think it's really very insulting to have a "no, we mean REAL women" subtext in having the anti-trans policy. Also, it makes people who go the festival complicit in making this insult. If it were called the Womyn-Born-Womyn Music Festival, people who aren't into that kind of sep. space would be less likely to go. 4) Things do change. S/M and "deviant" lezbo sex practices are now rampant there where they were shunned in the past. So hopefully this will happen with gender as well. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Reply from: BethX on 6/10/99 at 8:10AM. qtip, christ, we're agreeing for once, so let's agree to disagree on most stuff and agree on this, ok??? sheeesh. and I stated what i thought a good policy would be. non-male identified. that includes your entire transgendered spectrum, ok??? (except for FtM transsexuals, who by their own definition, i would assume are male. I dunno, personally, i wouldn't give a fuck if they were there, but i'm certain a bunch of Dworkin schooled seperatists would have a fucking hissy fit.) | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 6/10/99 at 8:18AM. top | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Reply from: Maude E. on 6/10/99 at 8:30AM. *cough* I know lots of male-identified butch women who would laugh in your face at that, bethx. You don't have to be an ftm to be a woman and be masculine. I hardly think "non male identified" covers the whole gender spectrum... | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Reply from: Maude E. on 6/10/99 at 8:31AM. (not that you even can be an ftm and be a woman and masculine! coffee!) | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Reply from: BethX on 6/10/99 at 8:59AM. male identified to the point that they grow facial hair. how about that. ugh, stop, you are giving me a headache. how about this? anyone who was non-male identified, either through biology or through sociology at one time in their life. does that cover it???? | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Reply from: brock on 6/10/99 at 9:06AM. from kaia: Hey Brock, "While I understand and respect how important woman-only space is, and while I applaud your commitment to supporting spaces like that, I wonder how you justify playing at this festival. " Basicly you hit the nail on the head. We support and respect the NEED for women only spaces, that is our justification. Furthermore, we feel that Michigan defining the term/identity "Women" in there policies as "Woman born Woman" is also not an inherently transphobic policy (no more than it is anti-male). We believe that Michigan is not a queer festival but a women's festival and is not being anti trans but is being pro women. If it was a queer/gay festival that didn't allow trans folk then that would be something we clearly wouldn't support. We also believe that seperate events/orginazations/spaces for opressed peoples is extremely important for networking and creating change. Perhaps the issue is that there is not a trans music festival, we would love to see that happen and would never view that as exclusionary or phobic towards "Women born Women". There is an enormous amount of misinformation on that post on the Chainsaw page, yeah I saw it. And though I respect you asking us directly what our reasons for playing are we are extremely busy recording right now and can't offer much more in terms of an ongoing discussion right now. Obviously it's an issue that is really complicated and deserves more time and energy then I have at the moment. ok well bye, Kaia | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Reply from: I wanna know... on 6/10/99 at 9:12AM. so it's not a queer event, that doesn't make sense. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Reply from: BethX on 6/10/99 at 10:07AM. hrmmm... well, all my butchies stuff is going in the trash tonight. Everytime they play in the area i will be there, reminding them of this. Sooo, wow. yeah. sounds like someone is trans positive except when they actually have to *gasp* stand up and say something isn't right. Sounds like pathetic justification to me. go have your fucking festival and wonder why i'm bitter. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Reply from: BethX on 6/10/99 at 10:14AM. I'd like to thank Kaia for stripping my gender from me. *HOW SILLY OF ME* to think that the little F on my drivers license stood for female. How silly of me to think that I *gasp* had the same rights as any other women. I will go find my place now, thank you for clearing it up. I was obviously mistaken in believing I was a human being worthy of a gender. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 6/10/99 at 10:30AM. oh my god. i think i'm going to be sick. that is so fucked up. i am so sorry beth. i don't think i can buy another one of kaia's albums again. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 6/10/99 at 10:35AM. her logic was similar to racists who say they dont hate black or brown people, they just love white people or want space. or to homphoboes who dont like queers but "dont want them in my face." then you usally respond that i wouldnt get in your face cause youre an ugly mofo but anyway, i think kaia was just offended that bethx is more woman than shell ever be. heh | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 6/10/99 at 10:58AM. tippity-top | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Reply from: brock on 6/10/99 at 11:32AM. i'm surprised more people aren't upset by this. i know i'm forwarding that email to pretty much everyone i know, and i'm not planning on supporting any mr. lady projects, etc, until she changes her attitude. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Reply from: BethX on 6/10/99 at 11:36AM. of course they aren't brock. It's the *butchies*. Duh. Basic human dignity is in no way more important than music. Didn't anyone tell you this???? I'm glad I know my place now, uh huh, yes sir. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 6/10/99 at 11:56AM. i've re-read this thread a few times just to make sure i'm getting it right, especially the response from kaia. is she saying that instead of allowing transgendred people at michigan that they should start their own fest? not anti-trans but pro-woman? i suppose you could justify any action with logic like that. beth, if i owned a butchies or kaia record i'd throw out it also. one other thing, is this the norm to exclude trans from lesbian separtist organizations? also, i read that tribe 8 article and it seemed like they really shook things up there in the past so it seems to me that maybe things can change. i don't know, what a complicated issue. either wya, at least for me, personal beliefs take precedence over music. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Reply from: BethX on 6/10/99 at 12:04PM. I wrote them an email. I'm reallly pissed off. I'm asking people, if you own butchies stuff, please send it back to them with a note saying why. That's where my stuff is going. From beth@hyland.magenet.com Thu Jun 10 14:58:56 1999 Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 14:58:27 -0400 (EDT) From: Elizabeth Flanagan To: Tammy Rae & Kaia Subject: Re: An honest question.... hi, you don't know me, but brock has forwarded this letter to me. first, I am BethX from the chainsaw message board. what i wrote in the Chainsaw post is factually accurate. I've cited sources to the information. You can email Dallas Denny for any additional information. secondly, i have to admit, i'm rather disappointed in your stance. No, disappointed is the wrong word. Angered is better. I'm sorry, but it sounds no more than the same lame ass justifications NOW used back in the 60's and 70's to expell lesbians from the organization. Except this is in a way worse. You preach trans-acceptance, yet you not only have little understanding of transsexuals/transgendered, but you activly support a policy to exclude them. Had you that understanding, you would know that: a. A trans woman is as much a "real woman" as you or any other woman born woman is. b. trans-inclusion does nothing to violate the sanctity of women only space. I'm sorry. I have to say that I not only will not buy any product your band or label produces, but I fully intend on posting/emailing this to every single friend I know, email list i'm on, web message board I post to, etc etc. encouraging them to do the same, until your position on this poilcy and your willingness to support it has changed. beth flanagan aka BethX
Reply from: Dog Pound on 6/10/99 at 12:07PM. | The Lesbain Sex Mafia in NYC(a SM group) has also gone round and round about the issue of trans women. I got so damn fed up with the bullshit, I resigned as an officer and have never gone back. Let's all get over all the bullshit and move on. No one has any right to tell anyone else who or what they are.
Reply from: BethX on 6/10/99 at 12:36PM. | way to go Dog Pound! Nothing is cooler than a person who stands by their convictions.
Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 6/10/99 at 12:43PM. | what was kaia reffering to by "an enormous amount of misinformation"?
Reply from: BethX on 6/10/99 at 12:57PM. | no idea, especially since the stuff i posted was verified from independent sources.
Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 6/10/99 at 12:59PM. | is it just me or doesn't it seem that "women born women" should include trans women as well? imean, they were born women, just with different/the wrong sex organs. perhaps they should say "women born biologically female" since they seem to be getting sex and gender all messed up. on a personal note, i have to say i'm appalled and sickened by the willingness of people on this board to forgive bigotry, illogical argument, and plain old bullshit simply because someone in a "cool band" does it. if these were average joe (er.. joans) supporting the fest, rather than *kaia* and *tribe 8*, would you all be so fast to find excuses for them?
Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 6/10/99 at 1:04PM. | so why can't mtfs post-op, pre-op whatever just go anyway? i doubt they do skirt checks.
Reply from: Dog Pound on 6/10/99 at 1:06PM. | I dont' think that's the point.
Reply from: BethX on 6/10/99 at 1:06PM. | they could if you stay closeted and pass well enough. if you don't your are fucked.
Reply from: BethX on 6/10/99 at 1:07PM. | aggghhh i mean "you're fucked." stupid spelling mistake.
Reply from: apocalyptica on 6/10/99 at 1:07PM. | I LOVE WATCHING PEOPLE SO FIERCLY DEBATE SOMETHING THAT AFFECTS 0.000037% OF THE POPULATION OF THE UNITED STATES, AT MOST.
Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 6/10/99 at 1:09PM. | do you pass, beth? if you did, would you go?
Reply from: katiekaput on 6/10/99 at 1:09PM. | ooh, letter writing time. i loved kaia so much...:( mebby she'll open her eyes if i explain it right. or something.:( prolly not, eh?--kat (brock, thanks for e-mailing her... and beth's suggestion abt. butchies/kaia stuff is right on)
Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 6/10/99 at 1:10PM. | i love watching apocalyptica completely miss the entire point!
Reply from: BethX on 6/10/99 at 1:11PM. | yes i do. no i wouldn't. and shecky, it effects a lot more than that. even if it effects .0000000000000000000001% of the population, it's still wrong. Should we ignore all the bad stuff that happens to say, jewish people because they're only like, what maybe %5 of the population?
Reply from: BethX on 6/10/99 at 1:15PM. | the yes I do, no i don't was towards anon 1:09 yes, i pass. i'm not the cutest thing on the block, but i'm certainly a hell of alot cuter than a few people. http://www.magenet.com/~beth/beth1.JPG and i won't go until the policy is revoked.
Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 6/10/99 at 1:18PM. | okay, i pretty much agree with that the anti trans thing is fucked up, but what do you want them to do? really, how can you have a women's only group without drawing a line somewhere? i know at least three woman born women that have facial hair, chin hair, by the way, that's not going to cut it. i also have two friends that are women that were born male. one all male, one with both and was brought up female. and they both identify as being female. i'm saying i don't know how i would deal with this, i think i just wouldn't make an all female group like that, but if i did want to which would be perfectly valid, there'd have to be a line you know? i really don't think the fest is doing background checks etc.. it's for women. if you identify as a woman, then i really think they would not have a problem with that at all. why do people feel that everything has to be about them?
Reply from: BethX on 6/10/99 at 1:20PM. | nancy burkholder identifies as a women. that's why they had the security guards boot her ass out of there in the *MIDDLE OF THE FUCKING NIGHT*!
Reply from: BethX on 6/10/99 at 1:21PM. | ewps. wrong url. http://www.magenet.com/~beth/images/beth1.JPG
Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 6/10/99 at 1:23PM. | i am so surprised after reading this post as to what michigan is like. you'd never know this from reading their website because i didn't find this addressed anywhere. i must say that i am also very disapointed that tribe 8 and sister spit are participating in this. i read the article about tribe 8 and i admire them for taking the s&m stand, but why stop there? i'd hate to think that people only get involved with issues that directly affect them like the trans issue or dykes with male children. seems way too exclusionary to me, but isn't this what lesbian separatism is all about?
Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 6/10/99 at 1:24PM. | come on. they wouldn't do that if she was just sitting there being woman identified rocking out at a fest. i'm not at all saying it was justified, but tell me where do you think the line should be drawn?
Reply from: katiekaput on 6/10/99 at 1:24PM. | not only would they have a problem w/my attending (as a woman who identifies as a woman regardless of genitalia), they have a problem w/me even identifying that way. michigan makes me sick. they're the womyn-police. better have yr womyn-ID ready at the gate.--kat, who wants to go camp outside if someone will take her... she can't drive;)
Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 6/10/99 at 1:26PM. | and like the person said before, this is not a dyke/queer/etc.. fest. it's a women's fest. it's supposed to be one little thing that women can have to just be around women. i think it's a little dumb but why can't you put down your defenses and see what they're talking about instead of just screaming about nonsense and throwing all your records away? what do you think they should do? give a solution.
Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 6/10/99 at 1:28PM. | who has a problem with you identifying that way?
Reply from: BethX on 6/10/99 at 1:28PM. | i think I already stated my response to that. qtip, would you like to field this one? you're better at the transgendered stuff than I am.
Reply from: Dog pound on 6/10/99 at 1:28PM. | they should stop being so fucking ignorant and let trannie women in, that's what they should do.
Reply from: katiekaput on 6/10/99 at 1:28PM. | it's a womyn's fest, yes. transgendered womyn are womyn. let us in. yeah.--kat
Reply from: brock on 6/10/99 at 1:30PM. | (i think, identifying as male, that i'll stay out of this from now on) the point we are trying to make is that the way the michigan womyn deliniate who is a woman and who isn't is totally fucked. sorry, but beth and kat are as much women as the "womyn born womyn" who attend the fest. that's the point.
Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 6/10/99 at 1:32PM. | yeah, well i think they do. like i said, just becuase they kicked someone out years ago that was supposedly woman identified doesn't mean they don't want people that identify as women that may or may not technically be in there. stop shouting slogans and think about what you're talking about. this is probably a really awesome group of people putting on this show, maybe their beliefs are different but you're not telling me where you would draw the line. i mean, do you not support the idea of a women's fest at all? or who can get in? trannie women. okay what does that mean. who gets kicked out? no one? does everyone have to state what they identify as and wear it on their arm?
Reply from: BethX on 6/10/99 at 1:35PM. | well, let's see. I make 52% of the salary of my male counterparts at work. My opinion is valued less than a mans in most places. If I'm tough at work i'm considered a "bitch" If I enjoy sex, i'm a whore. If I say I want equal rights I'm a "man-hating lesbian" I would think that those reasons and about a billion other reasons would be more than enough to get me past the woman-gender police. guess not.
Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 6/10/99 at 1:36PM. | hey, nobody is saying they aren't, not even the michigan people. but it's a really fine line you know? they're not these evil people you're making them out to be. okay, beth's obviously female. but is it okay for cross dressing men to go? cause then any guy could just go in a wig and be like yeah i'm a woman. and that would fuck the whole thing up. i don't know what to say. i totally agree with you guys, it's fucked up not to let some people in that are obviously women/identified. but what line do you want to draw?
Reply from: max grrl on 6/10/99 at 1:37PM. | "and like the person said before, this is not a dyke/queer/etc.. fest. it's a women's fest. it's supposed to be one little thing that women can have to just be around women. i think it's a little dumb but why can't you put down your defenses and see what they're talking about instead of just screaming about nonsense and throwing all your records away? what do you think they should do? give a solution." screaming about nonsense? what are we, a bunch of "hysterical women"? fuck that. it's called giving a shit about people's rights. you said it yourself--it's a WOMEN'S fest..it doesn't have to be a dyke/queer fest to include women who weren't born women! as for lines being drawn..i think anybody who's female-identified enough to have an ID that says "FEMALE" is pretty damn sure she's a woman!
Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 6/10/99 at 1:38PM. | "I make 52% of the salary of my male counterparts at work." do you really? and why? i mean, not the "becuase the white man keeps everyone down" answer, i mean why do you stand for that? if they really are your counterparts and have no superiority over you then you probably have a case there..
Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 6/10/99 at 1:39PM. | um, okay so you have to have an id that says female to get in?
Reply from: BethX on 6/10/99 at 1:42PM. | anon, the two women who have run the show for ages have stated their policy of "womyn-born-womyn". read the article from camp rehobeth and the one with tribe 8. they don't care if you identify as a woman and look like cindy freaking crawford. if you were at one time anything oither and they find out about it, you are escorted out of there.
Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 6/10/99 at 1:43PM. | don't give me that "what are we, hysterical women" crap, you are going on about nonsense. you want to boycott something and just be mad about something without thinking about a solution and thinking about it rationally. you haven't offered one real solution to the problem. you want them to let trannie women in. okay what the fuck does that mean. where do YOU want to draw the line? i mean technically.. cause if you don't you're pretty much saying you don't support a women's fest.
Reply from: BethX on 6/10/99 at 1:44PM. | ha, max hasn't seen my old id. scary stuff that guy was.
Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 6/10/99 at 1:45PM. | no, i understand that and it's pretty stupid i agree. but i'm saying once you veer off of women born women at a women's fest, you're getting into a lot of grey area that you guys don't seem ready to deal with, you know? i'm not saying that's how it should be, i'm just saying that's how it is and trying to see it from their point of view.
Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 6/10/99 at 1:46PM. | bethx, i understand if you don't want to say but maybe i missed it, what exactly is your case? were you born with bits and pieces and changed when you were young, when you were older, etc..or something else..just wondering..
Reply from: BethX on 6/10/99 at 1:47PM. | um, dear, i'm a woman. I support a womans fest. But let's take your line of reasoning a bit further to its natural conclusion. Let's see. if I'm not a woman, then that means you support letting FtM's in the fest, because after all if i'm still a guy, they're still girls. cool, qtip, you get to go! awesome! maybe i'll ask loren cameron if he'd like to attend.
Reply from: max grrl on 6/10/99 at 1:47PM. | don't give you that "hysterical woman" nonsense? ok, don't give me that cowardly anonymous bullshit of yours and say that this is nonsense. you want a solution? fine, here's a solution: ALLOW TRANS WOMEN IN! period. it's not that difficult. if burly, bearded men--as someone else mentioned--start coming in and saying "i'm a woman," then you deal with that bridge when you come to it. until then--what the fuck is up with SPECIFICALLY KICKING OUT A TRANSEXUAL WOMAN who's even post-operative? and no, i wasn't saying you have to have an ID that says F to be female; i was just citing an example.
Reply from: BethX on 6/10/99 at 1:49PM. | my status. i transitioned a few years ago after dealing with this for 20 years. I lived as a guy for 23 years. hormone replacement therapy, a bunch of mental therapy, speech therapy and a life time later hear i am. Doctors say I'm most likely mosaic chromasomed. woohoo.
Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 6/10/99 at 1:50PM. | "ALLOW TRANS WOMEN IN! period. it's not that difficult. " well yeah, actually it is difficult. what's a trans woman? what does that mean? cause by my definition even cross dressing men could get in, and then the whole point of the thing is gone. i'm not saying the whole point wasn't a little dumb in the first place, but if that's what they wanted.. you're totally avoiding my point, what makes trans woman and what makes a man? who, technically, gets in?
Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 6/10/99 at 1:53PM. | what does mosaic chromasomed mean? also, you're totally hot bethx! don't ever worry about that cause you have no reason to. what will you tell your daughter, and when will you explain it to her? you don't have to answer that if you don't want to.. anyhow you're rad for doing it, it seems like the best thing. i have two friends in almost the same situation, one who is now a woman and one who is still kinda fighting it, and i wish he were as brave as you.
Reply from: steevo on 6/10/99 at 1:55PM. | so is there going to be lots of chicks at this wommen's conference? hmmmm i might have to attend
Reply from: BethX on 6/10/99 at 1:56PM. | mosaic chromasomed. means i've got some XX and some XY cells. my kid will be told the truth when it is deemed appropriate by the courts (ugh, custody crapola). As for me being cute. nah. if i was i'd be getting more dates than i am.
Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 6/10/99 at 2:04PM. | i promise you're hella cute. dates mean nothing, most people are idiots. i was reading some of the p.r.net posts, and i agree with a lot of what's being said here, this transgendered phobia is fucking stupid and makes me really angry sometimes but not in this case. i've read that thing kaia wrote several times now, and i really don't think she's trans phobic at all or trying to say that. okay, personally i think that putting up barriers like women only is stupid and helps nothing. but sometimes it can be good, you know? sometimes it's nice. i just dont know how something like this can be solved if they want to keep it a women's fest. i mean think about it objectively if you can.
Reply from: DP on 6/10/99 at 2:08PM. | I've read that Kaia post as well, and I know what she's saying, except for the this would be different if it were a queer thing. I hate to make a age-ist comment, but I've seen mostly older womyn(since they like that spelling so damn much) being so man hating and transphobic/smphobic/sexphobic and generally close minded. Who are they to judge others if they are so unhappy being judged by society at large? What does it solve? Can we please move out of the 70's? God its no wonder I'd rather hang out with my fag friends.
Reply from: max grrl on 6/10/99 at 2:08PM. | what makes a trans woman? i think any person who identifies as female to the extent that she is living as a woman "qualifies." to be realistic, you don't see many people who look like, say, Arnold Schwarzenegger saying, "I identify as a woman"! Do you know any transexuals who have retained ALL of their biological secondary sex characteristics? I sure don't. The definition of a woman may be subjective, but I don't think it's THAT subjective. and cross-dressers are not transexuals; they may fall under the umbrella "transgender," as beth has explained (along with her feelings about that term!); they don't live full-time as women. do you think that your average joe schmoe guy who thinks he should be able to go to the festival is going to try to pass himself off as a transexual? my point is that even transitioned MTFs, such as Nancy Burkhold, are not allowed into the festival.
Reply from: chaos on 6/10/99 at 2:20PM. | First of all, let me just say that I *abhor* the word "Womyn" But, moving on... Okay, yes, it is wrong for the Womyn's Fest to uphold their transphobic rules...*but* here's my response to the situation with the bands involved, by way of metaphor, I guess: I am a member of NOW. NOW, as an organization, is Pro-Choice. I am Pro-Life. So, does that mean that I should discontinue my support of the other 923874293847 things that they do that I agree with and whole-heartedly want to be a part of, because of the one thing we disagree on? Maybe, some of you will say, but I don't think so...
Reply from: BethX on 6/10/99 at 2:20PM. | The response: *************** Ok, does this sound like lame ass justification to you, or is it just me? Whatever happened to, if you aren't part of the solution you are part of the problem. *************** From mrlady@mindspring.com Thu Jun 10 17:18:01 1999 Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 16:15:30 -0400 From: Tammy Rae & Kaia To: Elizabeth Flanagan Subject: Re: An honest question.... Beth, The Butchies are in the studio for the next 3 weeks and will not be around to adress this matter. If you feel the need to bring down a label that makes no money, has never cut a profit and probably never will, a business that Kaia and I work our asses off trying to keep it afloat (a minimum of 20-30 hours a week on top of the 40 hour a week jobs we need to pay our bills, and in my case to support my family) a business that has my entire measly life savings invested in it - then go ahead. I suggest you put your energy where the real enemy is; I'm going to by not responding any further to your unjust and hostile attack on us and by having a discussion with the organizers of the festival. Tammy Rae Carland Mr. Lady Records + Videos
Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 6/10/99 at 2:23PM. | Dear Kaia, I read the mail you sent to Brock. I don't see the logic of the distinction between a women's festival vs. a queer festival. Why is one allowed to discriminate and the other not? I think that it is good that there are times for separateness and times for coalition. With a gathering of this size, I think there is some confusion and ambiguity about what exactly the group is that is separating itself. Is it simply a group of women or is it a group of women that excludes trans women? If you feel that you want to be part of a group of women that wants to exclude trans women, by all means go to the festival. I agree with Maude's suggestion that the festival should specify in their name that they are a Womyn-born-womyn music festival if that's what they are.
Reply from: brock on 6/10/99 at 2:23PM. | chaos, that's beside the point. not only do the butchies seem to be into keeping trans people out of woman only spaces, they also seem to lack basic understanding of what it means to be transsexual or transgendered. that's what i understand anyway.
Reply from: Larry-bob on 6/10/99 at 2:24PM. | that last one was my letter to Kaia.
Reply from: max grrl on 6/10/99 at 2:25PM. | yikes.
Reply from: chaos on 6/10/99 at 2:26PM. | brock, I didn't get that...maybe I should read again. I don't know.
Reply from: chaos on 6/10/99 at 2:29PM. | and, I don't think it's besides the point at all. At some point, I guess, there has to be a choice of how you choose to support what You believe in.
Reply from: jesse on 6/10/99 at 2:37PM. | chaos, i think the issue was more with the band...most people knew the fest was fucked up anyway. and they're asking for the band's clarification on what they're supporting so that they know whether they respond to friend or foe. i am with larry bob here. why is the same thing defined two different ways depending on core audience?
Reply from: BethX on 6/10/99 at 2:45PM. | From beth@hyland.magenet.com Thu Jun 10 17:43:47 1999 Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 17:43:24 -0400 (EDT) From: Elizabeth Flanagan On Thu, 10 Jun 1999, Tammy Rae & Kaia wrote: > Beth, > The Butchies are in the studio for the next 3 weeks and will not be > around to adress this matter. It really is an important matter, and I really do hope that you would find the time to do so. > > If you feel the need to bring down a label that makes no money, has > never cut a profit and probably never will, a business that Kaia and I > work our asses off trying to keep it afloat (a minimum of 20-30 hours a > week on top of the 40 hour a week jobs we need to pay our bills, and in > my case to support my family) a business that has my entire measly life > savings invested in it - then go ahead. > I feel the need not to support a policy that is a. totally not just a little bit silly b. incredibly bigoted If that means not supporting your label and your band or the label or bands of anyone else who supports this policy, then that is hardly my fault. I'm sorry that you can't see that by playing michigan you lend your support to this policy. For you it's a matter of simple economics and wanting to play in your band. For me, and the other sisters outside those gates it's a matter of Equal Rights and basic human dignity. > I suggest you put your energy where the real enemy is; I'm going to by > not responding any further to your unjust and hostile attack on us and > by having a discussion with the organizers of the festival. You are not my enemy. Neither is the festival. The policy is however. By supporting this policy when you are in the position to attempt to make a change... i dunno, it just disappoints me. I'd expect better from people in "the scene". Oh well, i get disappointed in people more and more each day. I thank you for taking the time to respond and I hope your discussion with the people who runs the fest is fruitful. Understand, please, that if I came off harsh I apoligize. But this is something that is very important to me. When my whole existance is demeaned (and this policy does demean it) i have a habit of fighting back. again, thank you for the response. -beth
Reply from: mz fitt on 6/10/99 at 3:01PM. | im going and thats that. i do feel for trans people and i understand the issue at hand, but i dont think putting the blame on kaia for playing it is right. nor is trying to belittle people like myself who are going to the festival. this whole thing reminds me of the whole "no boys allowed" policy that almost destroyed many riot grrrl chapters. if you feel excluded, start your own festival. dont send a million emails to people like kaia and tammy rae, who you KNOW are not the enemy here. i am sure there is a much better way to get your point across.
Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 6/10/99 at 3:04PM. | ha ha mz fitt is such a pathetic scene climber. she just doesn't want to upset the powers that be. FUCK THE SCENE IF THE SCENE IS BUILT BY ASSHOLES.
Reply from: caseycultist on 6/10/99 at 3:05PM. | wow. i find the butchies' response really disappointing. i'm kind of shocked. damn.
Reply from: penny on 6/10/99 at 3:09PM. | (from Kaia's letter) "We believe that Michigan is not a queer festival but a women's festival and is not being anti trans but is being pro women." Does this mean that since it's not a "queer festival", only straight women should be allowed in? After all, it wouldn't be being anti-queer, just pro-straight. (sarcasm)
Reply from: caseycultist on 6/10/99 at 3:09PM. | well, double damn and i'll raise you a fuck. i'm completely disappointed with your response, too, liz. this whole fucking situation is so unfair. how DARE the feminist community (especially the so called PUNK ROCK one) attempt to deny transgendered women their womanhood? who are they to tell kat or beth they aren't woman enough? this is so hurtful and damaging. like they don't get that enough on a day to day basis from the square world, now they have to get it from people who should be their allies... whatever.
Reply from: mz fitt on 6/10/99 at 3:20PM. | i UNDERSTAND that and i do think its wrong . i am not denying anyone anything. nor am i claiming to agree with michigans rule. but that doesnt make me a terrible person or an enemy for going. and the same goes for bands who are playing.
Reply from: enik on 6/10/99 at 3:22PM. | chaos-with all due respect, i don't understand your logic. what if i was planning on attending a cancer fund raiser. when i arrive, i find out no african-americans are allowed inside. would it still be alright for me to attend anyway, just because its for a good cause? and would it be ok to support any bands that played the fund raiser. no, not in my opinion.
Reply from: BethX on 6/10/99 at 3:45PM. | so, like if black people weren't allowed to come, you'd still go, right mz fitts? or say if lesbians weren't?
Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 6/10/99 at 3:48PM. | no she's a lesbian, so she'd "take a stand" against that. then they would be going "too far"!
Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 6/10/99 at 3:50PM. | do you have to be trans* to go to the camp out, or are supporters allowed, too?
Reply from: BethX on 6/10/99 at 3:52PM. | everyone is allowed from my understanding. they don't have a silly policy.
Reply from: brock on 6/10/99 at 3:59PM. | so, on behalf of the butchies, i am going to say that they are planning on releasing a public statement regarding this matter, and they really don't want to get anymore email about this subject until they have done so. so yeah.
Reply from: P.M.D on 6/10/99 at 4:08PM. | Ms Fitt, it makes you as terrible as going to a fest where only whites are allowed. worse even. shut your hole up.
Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 6/10/99 at 4:21PM. | um, ok, but are there any black people that are "white" because they feel white? and vice versa? and same for other races? you can't compare the two. you have no right to call people "starfuckers" just because they don't agree with you. i personally can't take a stand against the festival because there is such a need for all-women space, yet gender is so hard to define. you're never going to be able to please everyone, and i really don't see it as a matter discrimination, but rather a means of making a female-only space and *trying* to work-out the whole gender thing...
Reply from: BethX on 6/10/99 at 4:32PM. | there are black people that pass for white all the time. high yellow, red boned... yup... so, being as not everyone can have the right to be treated fairly, fuck the transsexuals. after all they're rowdy, i mean look at the riot they started in that little bar in NYC in 1968. what was its name??? ah that's right stonewall....
Reply from: roomate of the attacked Mr.Ladies on 6/10/99 at 4:33PM. | ok. first of all...bethx, i think personal e-mails are to be kept between those involved, not for public viewing. very uncool!!!! if you want to dialouge, then you do it good and proper. it is an ivasion of privacy for you to have had posted the e-mail you recieved from Tammy Rae. second of all, i refuse to stand by and listen to two of the most genuine, good natured, amazing, inspiring, right-on politic havin' people i personally know be ripped apart in the manner that this issue has been adressed on chainsaw. i get to see the stress, the dedication, the frustration, the involvement, the overwhelming effort that Kaia and TRC put into Mr. Lady every day. and it is beyond upsetting to see people cutting them down to shreds within their own community. why would you all go out of your way to boycott and destroy something that already has so many strikes against them in this society. the amount of shit these girls put up with from the non-queerpunkmusicpresshomophobicfuckers etc, is overwelming. i mean, i just think this entire post is such an incredible waste of ANGRY ENERGY. if you all put this much energy into taking on the real fuckers in this world, it might be half a decent place to live. it is not only upsetting but discouraging. it is one thing to call people on shit and to communicate with them about it. but this isn't about that. this is about not being able to see things on a wider spectrum than just the punk queer community. mr. lady isn't just dedicated to queers, but also women. i understand that feminism has progressed in some circles as a dirty word, but there are some of us that are still angry. and that are not only not afraid to call ourselves feminists, but proud. this is an issue that needs to be aimed at the Michigan organizers not Tammy Rae and Kaia. You (those you who are apparently now anti-Mr. Lady) need to redirect who it is you should be angry with regarding this issue. YOU are fighting the wrong people. the Butchies are playing Michigan because they support women only spaces. to claim they are anti-trans is an ignorant statement. one that cannot be made without knowing them personally. it is unfiar to claim them guilty by association. i mean fuck, i ate at Taco Bell today, am i going to hell in a handbasket? the argument is a valid one, but is being translated in a self-destructive non-productive way. i'm not saying that you shouldn't pick your battles, i am saying that you need to think twice about who you should be directing them at. The butchies have not alined themselves with a neo-nazi group, but a feminist festival. wake up. and while it's okay to critisize, this thing has turned into something to be ashamed of. if you want to try and stop one of the most amazing and sincere things going (mr.lady) then you are headed down the right path. when will we stop destroying ourselves? this thing is ridiculous. please think about the damage you do on this board and with words.
Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 6/10/99 at 4:34PM. | Um, question. How is it a "queer thing"? If you are a man who has become a woman, would you be queer if A) you liked women, or B) you liked men? So the assertion that this is or isn't a queer thing is bullshit. If they identify themselves as women, we should recognize them as such.
Reply from: apocalyptica on 6/10/99 at 4:36PM. | EVERYONE KNOWS THAT RACISM ONLY OCCURS AGAINST BLACKS, SEXISM ONLY OCCURS AGAINST WOMEN, AND SEXUAL DISCRIMINATION ONLY OCCURS AGAINST HOMOSEXUALS. DON'T TRY AND CLAIM THAT WOMEN CAN BE RACIST, SEXIST, AND HOMOPHOBES. AND TRANSPHOBIC, TOO. THEY CAN'T, THEY'RE NOT ALLOWED TO. DUH.
Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 6/10/99 at 4:38PM. | "there are black people that pass for white all the time. high yellow, red boned... yup... " what the hell are you talking about? my point was that there are no black people who call themselves white because they feel white (and vice versa), where as there ARE biological men who call themselves women because they feel so (and vice versa). so that whole analogy makes no sense whatsoever.
Reply from: apocalyptica on 6/10/99 at 4:41PM. | WHAT IS "FEELING WHITE"? IF FEELING WHITE MEANS LISTENING TO CRAPPY POP BANDS, OWNING EVERYTHING IN SIGHT, AND ALL AROUND ACTNG LIKE A CRACKER? IF IT IS, I HAPPEN TO KNOW A BLACK GIRL WHO FEELS WHITE. SHE'S REALLY COOL, BUT SHE'S SUCH A FUCKING HONKY.
Reply from: anon 999 on 6/10/99 at 4:45PM. | no, the black/white thing isn't accurate enough... what it should read is "what if blacks were allowed, but mixed race weren't, because they're not REALLY black"
Reply from: apocalyptica on 6/10/99 at 4:48PM. | INTERESTINGLY ENOUGH, I HAVE GOTTEN MYSELF OFFICIALLY RECOGNIZED BY THE US GOVERNMENT AS BEING "OF AFRICAN DESCENT"
Reply from: Larry-bob on 6/10/99 at 4:50PM. | Bands make commitments like playing in all-ages spaces, playing in non-homophobic spaces, playing in non-sexist spaces. How about pledging not to play in transphobic spaces?
Reply from: Mr. Lady / Tammy Rae on 6/10/99 at 4:53PM. | Yes, the Butchies and Mr. Lady are going to make a public statement. It will be emailed to those who have emailed us and it will be posted on this message board. Please stop emailing us, (and quoting personal mail) you will get the response here for all to see. I don't want to get in to it but... I do have to say that Kaia's email was written to Brock and frankly not a lot of time went into it at the end of a 12 hour work day. Had she thought that he was going to use "fair use" policies (whatever that is) to share it with the world, she, The Butchies and I would have obviously made a more thoughtful and complicated response. Despite popular belief we do have thoughtful and complicated ideas and opinions on this. Also my response to Beth was ment for her and not this board. Perhaps there is some rule of thumb where all email is open for public consumption, if so - that's new to me and surely I will never email someone I don't personally Know again. And to those who have emailed me and called me defensive and not liked my tone, well try being in my shoes today, a day where not only did I put in a 10 hour day at the Mr. Lady office (which I don't get paid for), on top of it I have had to defend a violation against what I believe was a personal conversation and not a willing participation in a very important public dialogue. Public people aren't always public. It makes me sad that this is the most attention Mr. Lady has gotten after 3 years of producing and distributing political queer and feminist culture.
Reply from: BethX on 6/10/99 at 4:57PM. | sigh, ok, i'll respond. I am not anti-mr.lady. Hell, i'm not anti-butchies either. I'm anti a certain policy. Because the butchies play at a festival that enforces that policy (and unless something has changed over the past year, it is still enforced to the best of my knowledge) there is a certain legitamacy given by them to that policy. I'm not angry at the butchies (or any band that plays there.) disappointed, yes. angry at their attitude about this, yes. them personally, no. as for me posting the email, yes, it was probably in bad form. But i'm sorry, the exclusion of a group of people from a place they have as much of a right to be at is, i think, the bigger of the two sins. I won't support a policy that excludes me when I have fought long and hard to get where I am. I won't support a band or label that ignores a blatantly bigoted policy. If Mr. Lady et al is dedicated to women, then why do they play at a place that does not allow "certain" women entrance? Please, understand, Tammy Rae and Kaia, like it or not, are role models. And when a person who is in that position doesn't take a stand for something that is so blatantly wrong, they in a sense, put their seal of approval on it, by not standing up when they could have. I agree, that the fest organizers should have pressure put on them to change the policy. That has been tried for years and years and years. If people refuse to go to MWMF and tell the organizers why, then maybe something will change. And if the bands playing (who are very popular there) refuse to play because of an ignorant policy, then the policy will fall sooner.
Reply from: mz fitt on 6/10/99 at 4:58PM. | oh come on. there is a huge difference between not allowing black people to something and not letting people who were BORN MEN into a women-only festival. one is blatant discrimination, the other (while it is blatant discrimination to me...) is not only because the trans issue is such a sticky and ambigious one...and so new to so many people. it will take lots more education and rational discussion *NOT ATTACKS!* to make the fest organizers see that. take it up with the festivals organizers. make a fuss with them. that will change something much more then these attacks on me will. the trip to michigan is a graduation gift. my friends are playing. and friends who i havent seen in a long long time will be there. so yes, i am going. will i be trying to find out more about the no-trans policy and hearing others point of view and thinking a whole lot about the issue while i am there? you bet your ass. your anger is justified. so are your complaints. but you are taking it out on the wrong people.
Reply from: BethX on 6/10/99 at 5:07PM. | dear, i was only born male in my genital region. all the grey matter betwix my ears is as female as any other womans. shit, half the damn cells in my body are female. i prolly take more estrogen in a day than you piss out in an entire month. so please, tell me how i was born "male" cause i don't get it?
Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 6/10/99 at 5:10PM. | Beth X how long did you live as a male and enjoy the access and priveleges that come along with that gender?
Reply from: brock on 6/10/99 at 5:14PM. | "It makes me sad that this is the most attention Mr. Lady has gotten after 3 years of producing and distributing political queer and feminist culture. " maybe that's because your attitude about "women born women" is really really fucking dangerous to "political queer and feminist culture". i really don't appreciate your attitude.
Reply from: BethX on 6/10/99 at 5:15PM. | i lived in a male body for a tad over 23 years. i didn't enjoy any access because i was lower on the evolutionary scale apparently. see men would rather deal with a women than with an effeminate male (which i was. way nellie. the only thing being a boy got me was a selective service card. woohoo.
Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 6/10/99 at 5:18PM. | and a child....
Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 6/10/99 at 5:20PM. | props to the above anon. *swoon*
Reply from: biologykitten on 6/10/99 at 5:20PM. | There are tons of different ways of defining sex-- gonadally is just one of them. Sexual differentiation of the brain occurs between the 18th day of gestation and the 11th day postnatally, with the most important period being the 1st five days postnatal (after birth.) In males, circulating testosterone from the gonads (sex organs) goes to a certain region of the central nervous system and is aromatized to estrogen which then controls the development of the male brain. If there is no testosterone in the male's body, then the male develops female behavoir and female GnRH (gonadotropin releasing hormone-- involced with the "biological clock.") Females have a binding protein which circulates in the blood called alpha fetal protein, the CNS develops with a female pattern when the estrogen is bound to the protein. (i.e. if you have female genitals but no binding protein you develop a male brain.) GIVEN ALL THIS, I understand why the Michigan woman says "it's the penis in their brains" or whatever. THAT DOESN'T MEAN IT'S OKAY, just that it it's true (probably for most MtF people.) BethX....................... I don't remember mosaic chromosomes from genetics... since you said XY and XX is it Kleifelters (XXY) or similar?................ Given the WIDE spectrum of sexual variation (in terms of genitals, chromosomes, brains/hormones, sociology) I don't know how you could try to define who is a woman and who is not...... BTW-- maybe Kaia was planning on throwing a fit on stage until they had to act "unfemininely" and violently pull her off!!! Think about it... if she tried to speak out against the trans-phobia... what would they do to stop her???
Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 6/10/99 at 5:25PM. | maybe kaia wouldnt even think of doing sch a thing because she is happy to be playing a festival that has done so much good despite its fucked up policy.
Reply from: enik on 6/10/99 at 5:25PM. | my point was, would you support an organization or event thats working for a good cause even if it had/supported policies you strongly disagree with (like discrimination).
Reply from: BethX on 6/10/99 at 5:25PM. | biologykitten: that's part of the reason i'm talking about. that is what *normally* happens. in most transsexual people (and i'm not going to speak for transgendered folks, because i'm gonna lay off that discussion for a while) that does not happen. or if it does it happens incompletely. I've got it!!! We can do *BLOOD TESTS* at the gate!!! (sarcasm) on a different note, biology kitten, you speak genetics. *swoon*.
Reply from: BethX on 6/10/99 at 5:27PM. | no, actually, i could have gotten the child if i was a female. so :P
Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 6/10/99 at 5:27PM. | Beth X - So you were a straight (albeit effeminate) male for 23 years(which i am assuming is more then half you life so far) and you dont see why maybe the michigan organizers would have a problem with you being in an all-womens safe space? You don't have to agree with their policy but I don't see how you can't see their point.
Reply from: biologykitten on 6/10/99 at 5:38PM. | BethX--- yeah, it's a hobby. I think that everyone who is involved in any of the social/political aspects of women's rights, transgender issues, reproductive technology and on and on, should know the biology, think about different ethical/moral questions and strong firm opinions. I mean, it's great to say, "I support transgendered people" but how can you really, without knowing that *biologically* something different than the majority is going on.... and what exactly that something is.......... on another note, for everybody else, sex organs develop during the early stages of gestation (I won't bore you with the details. If during this period a pregnant woman is exposed to an "endocrine disrupter" (which is a substance, chemical, drug, etc. that screws with hormones) a female child can be born with a blind vagina. She will have a clit, labia, and part of a vagina. No Uterus. No Ovaries or Fallopian Tubes. Because she hasn't "got it all" is she not a woman???
Reply from: BethX on 6/10/99 at 5:45PM. | anon, no actually i was an effeminate bisexual *something*. I would hardly call what i was a "male". I was passing as female fore 2 years or so, prior to me transitioning. My ex and I got eggs thrown at us from a moving car because we were "dykes".... I'm not going to justify my existance to you. If you don't get it, fine, whatever. At least put you name to your post so everyone can see the bigot you truly are.
Reply from: anon 999 on 6/10/99 at 5:46PM. | You know, the Mr Lady 'staff' really need to stop going on about how they put in blah blah hours of unpaid work for their label. It's not a fucking charity you know. You have the money to start a label. Fucking count yourselves lucky. There are a lot of people who don't.
Reply from: biologykitten on 6/10/99 at 5:47PM. | anon at 5 something--- maybe you're missing the point. BethX might say "male" because that's all that you can understand. Most people see sex as only organs, what you have or what you don't have. But really it is sooooo much more. It's hormones, enzymes that convert hormones, chromosomes (in number and composition), etc. THERE ARE NOT TWO SEXES IN THIS COUNTRY. And if you are going to run a huge event like that, you really have to specify what it is you're talking about. (So we know who you choose to exclude. cool.) There are people out there with "female" genitals but "male" brains (in the patterns of hormone release-- which is another way of defining sex. How would you descrbe that person? Male or female? I bet you they would be welcome at the festival, no problem, because they are *obviously* "women" who were born "women." Whatever. the whole thing is fucked no matter how you look at it.
Reply from: mz fitt on 6/10/99 at 5:48PM. | i dont see why myself or kaia have to justify our choice to support something that is very womyn/queer positive (for the most part) to you.
Reply from: BethX on 6/10/99 at 5:49PM. | biology kitten: are you familiar with the work of Zhou, Gooren, Swaab and Hoffman? http://www.symposion.com/ijt/ijtc0106.htm on another note, would you marry me? geek girls who know their genetics make my heart flutter.
Reply from: anon 999 on 6/10/99 at 5:53PM. | "for the most part" yeah, cuz as long as youre in your own precious majority fuck everyone who isn't.
Reply from: BethX on 6/10/99 at 5:56PM. | anon 999 email me, ok?
Reply from: mz fitt on 6/10/99 at 5:57PM. | like someone said before...we re supporting a feminist/queer festival NOT a neo nazi convention. geeeeeeeeeeez. not to mention that i never claimed to be a trans-activist. im admittedly far to ignorant on the subject to be able to make a full stance on it. and altho i do think the policy is fucked up, i still see the good in the fest, and i am going.
Reply from: esk on 6/10/99 at 5:58PM. | "were supporting a feminist/queer festival..." wait, i thought kaia said it WASN'T a "queer festival."
Reply from: anon 999 on 6/10/99 at 5:58PM. | done...
Reply from: esk on 6/10/99 at 6:00PM. | mmm, i think i see a love connection... :D
Reply from: anon 999 on 6/10/99 at 6:01PM. | *lol*
Reply from: mz fitt on 6/10/99 at 6:02PM. | its not billed as such but the majority of people who go are lesbians. *i* see it as a queer festival. kaia is entitled to her own view.
Reply from: biologykitten on 6/10/99 at 6:04PM. | BethX-- I had never read it before. I checked it out though. I think that in the last year, most endocrinologists have really come to believe that it has a lot to do with the aromatase enzyme not being present (or malfunctioing) in males. Where is that journal from (I hate the whole oestrogen vs. estrogen thing). My personal interest really lies with intersex more than transgender. (Just cause when we learned about it genetics all these people who want to be doctors flipped out in class and would cringe at the sight of women with turner's or hermaphrodites) Since you're up on this stuff... did you see an article, probably 2 and a half years ago, about SanFran lesbians, bisexuals and straight women and differences in the structure of the inner ear? I lost it a while ago and can't find it again since....... Hey, maybe you can teach me how to html so i can insert line breaks...
Reply from: BethX on 6/10/99 at 6:05PM. | i dunno, esk. you could have had me if you knew latin. but noooooo you had to go take french (clech)
Reply from: BethX on 6/10/99 at 6:09PM. | line break is a left carrot a br and a right carrot. like so: <br&rt now, will you marry me. or at least be my future ex-girlfriend?
Reply from: BethX on 6/10/99 at 6:10PM. | er... you get the idea one...
Reply from: BethX on 6/10/99 at 6:11PM. | mz. fitz, guess i'm not queer enough then?
Reply from: the stock market on 6/10/99 at 6:15PM. | i have very interesting news, mr lady stock has doubled! kids, keep up the good work!
Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 6/10/99 at 6:17PM. | you wish
Reply from: biologykitten on 6/10/99 at 6:18PM. | BethX, I have a girlfriend. But she doesn't speak bio. She doesn't even know what it means when i tell her she acts crazy when she's luteal. Did it work? To all of those people who feel it's okay to go to this "women only space"-- Really, how do you define women? Do you even know how to? I bet the organizers are so uneducated that they don't.
Reply from: BethX on 6/10/99 at 6:25PM. | purrr.... you used a term for the corpus luteum in a sentence. now just talk radiation oncology and i'll be having a mental orgasm all night. ;) and yes, it worked.
Reply from: mash on 6/10/99 at 6:28PM. | if this were a chainsaw band we were talking about here, im curious how many of you with such strong convictions would be willing to boycott this place? :P~ scapegoats are such an easy solution, arent they?
Reply from: fuz on 6/10/99 at 6:28PM. | wow. this is one of the most intelligent discussions i've seen on the board. if anyone is going to camp out across from the fest, will you let me know? i think i'd like to be there...
Reply from: anon 999 on 6/10/99 at 6:30PM. | i think people who oppose the decision would gladly leave the place alone... it's hardly the hub of the universe.
Reply from: anon 999 on 6/10/99 at 6:35PM. | you know, to me this isn't just an issue about your personal opinion. it's an issue about people who are supposedly supporting a girl-positive arena putting limits on who is a girl! how LUDICROUS!! how about if they said you were only allowed in if you had long hair? some people in this world still think that is what makes a girl a girl... if they said you could only go to a queer fest if you had done x, y and z things that they specify, would YOU object?
Reply from: biologykitten on 6/10/99 at 6:38PM. | What if you are born with some form of intersex (male and female genitals)? What if you were intersex and they turned you into a boy when you were 3 months old?
Reply from: larrybob on 6/10/99 at 6:51PM. | On the "most attention the Butchies have received" comment - wasn't there a huge thread at the time of the homophobic flipside review?
Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 6/10/99 at 6:53PM. | i just wanna say that i think this entire brewhaha reeks of SEXISM!!!!!! Ani Difranco, Team Dresch, 7 year bitch, Murmurs, Indigo girls, Tribe 8, Sweet Honey in the Rock, Phranc, Chris Williamson. the list goes on and on of previous performers at Michigan. all amazing inspirational Womyn Performers. let's just erase Womeyn's music while were at it!!! i just have to wonder wether or not BethX and Brock put this kind of energy into say....Lollapalooza, Warped Tour, Horde tour, Lilth fair, OZZFEST(go, go satan!!!) etc.
Reply from: enik on 6/10/99 at 6:56PM. | I must be insane for debating this any further, but.... mz fitt-"for the most part"? i've never "attacked" anyone on this board, and i don't think i'm doing it now, though i'll be accused of it. but i'm sorry, i'm just calling you on your shit. do you even think before you post? you've posted some pretty ignorant things before, but this takes the cake. open your eyes and educate yourself.
Reply from: katiekaput on 6/10/99 at 6:56PM. | umm, as far as that goes, i love the music of all those performers... i dunno abt. brock and bethX. i don't put effort into ozz fest b/c i'm bizzy not waanting to go to it. hehehe.--kat
Reply from: genderfucked on 6/10/99 at 6:57PM. | to the anon at 6:53, the whole point is that we EXPECT fuckedup-ness at places like HORDE and lollapalooza, not at a womyn's fest. and not from people we thought were our allies and advocates, such as the butchies and tribe 8.
Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 6/10/99 at 6:59PM. | Uh humm, Larry it was... "It makes me sad that this is the most attention Mr. Lady has gotten after 3 years of producing and distributing political queer and feminist culture." Not the butchies. they are separate.
Reply from: biologykitten on 6/10/99 at 7:00PM. | anon-- All that I am saying is that they need to question their definition of what it is to be a woman. Science just does not allow for such a narrow- minded view as "it's what you're born with." Due to the increasing toxins and environmental insults we over-populated, over-spoiled people are releasing into the environment, more and more babies are being born different from the majority. We don't have 2 sexes now, we never have. Just as there are a zillion shades between heterosexual and homosexual, there are a lot of places in between male and female. It isn't a bad thing. People just need to learn to question their definition of sex.
Reply from: BethX on 6/10/99 at 7:01PM. | thank you genderfucked. you took the words right outta my mouth,
Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 6/10/99 at 7:15PM. | Look at Beth X trying to pick up chicks on the board. Just like a man.
Reply from: biologykitten on 6/10/99 at 7:18PM. | anon-- you're kidding right??? Girls try to pick each other up all the time! It's sweet!
Reply from: Yi on 6/10/99 at 7:22PM. | You speak of "greater good". Greater good meaning "majority rules". I'm sorry. I think that what people DO makes for who/what they are. BethX acts as a woman, so I think she's a woman. Mz Fitt is BY DEFAULT a woman, but acts like an asshole.
Reply from: mz fitt on 6/10/99 at 7:27PM. | im the asshole? im trying to make a reasonable defense of myself here. i never said i agreed with michigans policy. just because i dont feel comfortable blindly taking your side without hearing the other sides argument, and im not boycotting a label that i happen to think is very inspiring and important part of the scene? i admitted that i dont know to much about trans ussues. im trying to ducate myself on these issues. i dont know any trans people so its not like these issues are bought to my attention all the time. i went to see kate bornstein and leslie feinberg speak for this very purpose. im open to rational arguments but DO NOT call me an asshole just because i m defending my own opinion.
Reply from: #427 on 6/10/99 at 7:31PM. | Why is it that some people put their "role models" so high up on some pedestal like some god or goddess? Why should these bands have a "higher" responsibility (than anyone else) to be perfect, superhuman, and the most progressive human beings on the face of the planet? And why should they be expected to politic for you?! The organizers of the MWMF aren't making any headway? Billing Tribe 8 in '94 was a sign that the organizers are not totally adverse to change (nor "stuck in the 70's"). I don't see their (the bands') presence at the festival as supporting trans exclusion. After all, the two main bands mentioned here are hardly apolitical, and Tribe 8, specifically, is anything but "anti-trans". Who's to say that none of them will use their GREAT POWERS as ROLE MODELS to change the policy. It'll probably take some time, but divisionary tactics like this are not going to do anyone any good.
Reply from: BethX on 6/10/99 at 7:32PM. | anon: you're just pissed because i don't try to pick you up :P
Reply from: mz fitt on 6/10/99 at 7:32PM. | *hugs above anon* thank you.
Reply from: CC on 6/10/99 at 7:34PM. | "For you its a matter of simple economics and wanting to play in your band." How flippant. Did money cease to equal power some time recently and no one told me about it?!
Reply from: Arizona on 6/10/99 at 7:34PM. | So, bullying those you expect to be allies into agreeing with your selfish politics is going to make things better? Don't count on it.
Reply from: BethX on 6/10/99 at 7:34PM. | if a band consistantly preaches about say, playing in only all ages venues, and then goes out and playing in a bar.... what would you think of them?
Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 6/10/99 at 7:37PM. | I'd think that they could do whatever the fuck they want. They are still supporting the cause , they are just choosing to play somewhere else.
Reply from: #427 on 6/10/99 at 7:37PM. | Hardly. I'm going to wait for the statement from Mr. Lady et. al. before making so many presumptions (such as have been made above).
Reply from: Pink Puffy Coat on 6/10/99 at 7:39PM. | Y'know, they also have this no cotton-poly blend rule at the festival. so i'm boycotting, because i was born a cotton-poly blend, but i'm really just cotton! and i'm not going to boycott the festival itself. no, THAT would be just to easy! i'm going to tear down a really rad record label that is run by some really rad people just because i would rather protest the fact that they have decided to play this festival, than to PERHAPS GET OFF OF MY ASS AND START MY OWN FESTIVAL! you HAVE THAT OPTION! if you don't like a women-only space that does exclude trannies, start a festival yrself! focus yr oh so wonderful anger on something constructive. PINK PUFFY FABULOUSNESS FOR ALL!
Reply from: mz fitt on 6/10/99 at 7:45PM. | ROTFL!!
Reply from: BethX on 6/10/99 at 7:46PM. | hey, even better. If my employer treats women like shit, instead of trying to *gasp* change it, i'll just find another job. Or if the cops go and beat up black people maybe they should move to a town that doesn't have cops that beat up black people. stop making excuses for your own prejudice. Like I said. I have nothing personal against the Butchies. Their statement disgusted me, but they are allowed their opinion. I just don't have to support them anymore and I also can ask my friends not to either.
Reply from: CC on 6/10/99 at 7:49PM. | "Please, understand, Tammy Rae and Kaia, like it or not, are role models." YOU'VE put the title of ROLE MODEL on them. They're supposed to live up to something YOU created. WHICH ONE OF THESE STATEMENTS DOES NOT BELONG WITH THE OTHERS?: "I'm asking people, if you own butchies stuff, please send it back to them with a note saying why. that's where my stuff is going." "If it means not supporting your label and your band or the label or bands of anyone else who supports this policy, then that is hardly my fault." "hrmmm...well, all my butchies stuff is going in the trash tonight. Everytime they play in the area i will be there reminding them of this." "I'd like to thank Kaia for stripping my gender from me." "You are not my enemy. Neither is the festival. The policy is however." That last statement doesn't quite fit with the others, BethX.
Reply from: gay ass dude on 6/10/99 at 7:50PM. | being the only male going, think how many girls i can tea bag there!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Reply from: CC on 6/10/99 at 7:53PM. | Pink Puffy Coat--I'm with you. I'm going to boycott the festival because they promote illiteracy. They can't even spell "women's" correctly!!!!!!!
Reply from: BethX on 6/10/99 at 7:54PM. | no, they aren't my enemy. i disagree with their opinion, i think it's fucked up. I won't support them if they continue to support the policy. I doesn't mean I hate their guts though. Just means that I won't be supporting them. Why would I support a band that supports a policy that say I'm less of a human being? duh.
Reply from: CC on 6/10/99 at 7:59PM. | Then your "beef" is with the policy's creators/ the festival's organizers, BethX. Mr. Lady et.al. may not be your "enemy" but you sure as hell are advocating a public attack on them...
Reply from: BethX on 6/10/99 at 8:05PM. | no, my enemy is the policy. If pressuring the organizers, the bands going, the people who buy the albums of the bands going, etc etc will help to change that policy, then I'm going to do that. The reason they gave was bullshit, considering how "trans-friendly" everyone claims that they are. You and I both know that. Why don't you at least be honest. You don't want MtF trannies there because you don't think we deserve the right to be "female". And put your freaking name on your post. If you're going to be a bigot, at least have the courage to spit in my face instead of knife me in the back.
Reply from: katiekaput on 6/10/99 at 8:05PM. | blah. this whole thing is leaving a bad taste in my mouth... i can't wait for the press release thingy. i don't want mr. lady to die (or the butchies, or kaia)... i just want this cleared up. i want to understand why kaia said that (+ if that's what she meant) and i want her to understand us... oy vey. it ain't gonna happen that way...--kat
Reply from: to bethX on 6/10/99 at 8:08PM. | you have been on this message board since 7:10am! Please do something more constructive, than TRYING to ruining a DYKE run label and an all DYKE band. Please remember there are bigger enemies out there. thanks.
Reply from: BethX on 6/10/99 at 8:11PM. | I don't sleep. I work constantly. I'm at the peecee right now running a batch job. woohoo. and i'm not trying to ruin a label. I'm trying to change a policy that needs to be changed. What *would* ruin the label is if the folks running it didn't see how awful this policy was.
Reply from: k.k. on 6/10/99 at 8:11PM. | i wish we could all go into the chat room... kaia could explain why she wants to play the show (b/c it has SOMe positive aspects and SOME positive history, i think) + we could explain why we disagree w/her statement abt. trans* womyn and womyn's fests...--kat
Reply from: chaos on 6/10/99 at 8:21PM. | enik: Um, damn. I don't know, to be perfectly honest. Does the racism negate the good that they're doing? I honestly don't know...it would seem that the answer would be simple, but to me it's not...I wouldn't go, but that doesn't mean that if my friends went to support cancer research for their mother (hypothetically), I would throw them away, so...I don't know...
Reply from: Yi takes on the board on 6/10/99 at 8:26PM. | Mz Fitt: I'm sorry--I shouldn't call you an asshole. However, you say that you're "defending [your] own opinion". But JUST before that you "admitted that [you] dont know to much about trans ussues (sic)". So you don't know much about trans-issues, yet you'd still like to espouse your prejudices? Nice. I'm not sure if boycotting is the answer, either. At the same time, by going, by buying, you're endorsing them AND their fucked-up policy. I don't think the qualm should be that they won't admit trans-people in, I think the qualm should be that they claim to be about women, when they won't admit some WOMEN in. CC: Money is power to those who can be bought.
Reply from: mz fitt on 6/10/99 at 8:31PM. | i dont think im espousing my prejudices. i didnt say i agree with the policy. maybe going does make me prejudiced in your mind, but i, like kaia, tend to see it more as pro-woman then anti-tran, and like i said, the fest is a big summer event for me and ive been planning for it for a long time.
Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 6/10/99 at 8:35PM. | pro-certain-women... fuck the rest, right?
Reply from: original poster on 6/10/99 at 8:40PM. | shit, this makes me sad. maybe i shouldn't have even begun this post. i can't believe it turned into this. all i asked for were dates, etc..
Reply from: Yi on 6/10/99 at 8:43PM. | Mz Fitt, sweetie: 1) by saying that it's more pro-woman than anti-trans, you're saying that post-op women are not women. 2) An "opinion" is a judgment. A prejudice is a judgment made without knowledge. 3) Hope you enjoy your festival.
Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 6/10/99 at 8:47PM. | *giggle*
Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 6/10/99 at 8:50PM. | original poster, id like to think weve all gained a lot from this...maybe you wont actually go now...this was a good dialogue, over than the usual mud thrown at beth whos defending something really just and right.
Reply from: bettie on 6/10/99 at 8:56PM. | This is totally fucked up. I can't believe how much people make excuses for things...oh yeah I know I'm giving my $ to something bad, but it's not so bad that I can't rationalize.. People are such wusses, they won't stand up for anything. I haven't felt so disillusioned in a while.
Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 6/10/99 at 9:00PM. | i agree...it is sad. the whole making execuses is bullshit. just *do the right thing* or shut up. why is it ok for wome(y)n to discriminate against women? its not all that different than a man doing it...and i dont want to hear about why it is justifed with EVASIVE BULLSHIT "responses." oh well, im sure there will be more to read about in the morning
Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 6/10/99 at 9:16PM. | mz fitz, kaia, and everyone else who is supporting this should be ashamed of themselves.
Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 6/10/99 at 9:34PM. | alright, so i've been reading this for the past hour from start to now and i just want to applaude BethX. you are so incredibly intelligent and you fucking kick ass. i am so amazed by you.
Reply from: An anonymous viewer on 6/10/99 at 9:36PM. | thats nice anon, but youre a damn slow reader. i dont think shed like that :P |
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