InYourFace News Interview with Riki Anne Wilchins Gender activist Riki Anne Wilchins originated Camp Trans in 1995 as an educational event across the road from the Michigan Womyn's Music Festival to protest the festival's 'womyn-born-womyn-only' policy, a policy adopted specifically to exclude transgender women from the festival. This year's festival was held from Thursday, 12 Aug through Sunday, 15 Aug 99, and attended by approximately 7,000 women. Once again, Ms. Wilchins organized Camp Trans because the festival's management still held to their exclusionary policy. We interviewed hir yesterday, Wednesday, 18 Aug 99. ( IYF = InYourFace, RAW = Riki Anne Wilchins ) IYF: What's the origin of Camp Trans? RAW: Camp Trans started after Nancy Jean Burkholder, a two-time attendee, was evicted from the Festival in 1991 along with her friend, Janis Walworth, after Security confronted her with the accusation that she was transexual. The first Camp Trans was held across the road from the MWMF main gate and attended by 25-30 activists who conducted workshops to educate festival goers. Several hundred women came over during the 3-day event and heard speakers including Leslie Feinberg, Jamison Green, and Minnie Bruce Pratt. IYF: What is the Festival Policy on Trans-Inclusion? RAW: MWMF has stated that they only welcome "womyn-born womyn only." They will not precisely define this, other than to say it applies to women who were born and raised as women. This discriminates against not only transexual women, but against intersexed and FTM participants (and some butches) who cannot meet this definition of womanhood. IYF: Why Son of Camp Trans, and why this year? RAW: The name was intended as a joke, really. I called for the action this year because it had been 5 years since the original Camp Trans, and they still hadn't changed the policy. I've been trying to go to Michigan since 1979, ever since all my lesbian friends back in Cleveland used to pack up and go off every summer and I learned I couldn't go. IYF: So, did they change the policy as a result of Camp Trans? RAW: No, in fact, they narrowed it. But they have publicly stated they will not question any woman who attempts to pay and enter. This means they have the policy but won't enforce it. This has simply outraged the lesbian-separatists who are asking what's the use of a policy if you don't enforce it To their credit, though, MWMF owner Lisa Vogel put out a statement imploring festi-goers not to question the gender of any woman on the land, which is a step in the right direction. IYF: How was the policy narrowed? RAW: Well, this year, one of the MTFs entering was pre-op, and the FTM was post-op, and the big uproar from the separatists was that there were "penises on the land." Remember, MWMF is a place where the men who come to empty the porta-Janes have to have protection so they can quickly enter the festival, do their jobs, and leave. There's that much hostility towards men in some parts of the festival. So this year the organizers added on a "no penises on the land" clause. They also added that people must be legally female. That came out of negotiations we had with them on Saturday. IYF: How did that come about? RAW: We were looking for a way to move the dialog forward; they were looking for a way to get the penises off the land. I suggested that we might temporarily agree on a compromise wherein anyone who is legally female was welcome, anyone who was legally male would voluntarily leave. I thought they would agree, and the FTM and the pre-op MTF did leave, but then the coordinators just added that clause to their list, which then included womyn-born womyn only, no penises, and female IDs. Unfortunately, the FTM's penis was constructed in a phallo-plasti from the skin of his forearm. So perhaps the policy should actually read "no forearms on the land." IYF: So why didn't you renege, too? RAW: We wanted some kind of motion and agreement, even a bad one. We had a workshop that one of the young radical lesbians scheduled for us inside at noon, and we didn't want to miss it. I doubt we could have entered and left the Festival safely if the staff had just turned their backs on us. And the most important thing at that moment was to keep the momentum, to keep the dialog with attendees going by being inside and being visible. So we went with the moment. IYF: What about rumors that there were men in the women's showers? RAW: Actually, what happened was that Tony was hot and, after we got thoroughly soaked in the rainstorm the previous night, wanted a shower. He went to the shower area, asked the women present if it was okay (including Festival staff nearby), no one had a problem, and so he... well, there's no pleasant way to say this: he took... a shower! Remember this is a sworn police officer, not Jack the Ripper. But this being Michigan, by noon women were spreading rumors in the food area that a man had waved his "erect penis" at women in the shower stalls and terrorizing them. Sigh... IYF: But why would an FTM want to enter a women's festival? RAW: He told me, "First of all, I don't always identify as fully FTM; sometimes, I still think of myself as a woman sometimes and sometimes people still call me 'she'. Second, according to Festival policy, if it's "once a man always a man" for you, then it should be "once a woman, always a woman" for me: they can't have it both ways. All that aside, the bottom line is -- I've fought for this movement as a lesbian, organized and marched as a lesbian, grew up as a lesbian and spent almost my entire adult life as a lesbian, and been beaten up by the cops and thrown in jail as a lesbian. The surgery changed my body -- it didn't change my mind or my experience." IYF: How did the workshop go? RAW: It was intense. We had about 200 people crowded into this one area of the meadow, and more arriving every minute. People were yelling at me to get out, that I was ruining the Festival. Others were defending the action just as vigorously, saying that genderqueerness was a women's issue and every women had to be safe or none of us was safe. It got a little strange. At one point one woman accused me of calling on too many supportive people, and I said in total seriousness, "Okay, would anyone like to speak who thinks I'm just another patriarchal man invading women's land?" IYF: Did anyone speak to that? RAW: Yes, a very angry, very sad woman stood up to say that she had been coming to the festival for 13 years, had helped build it and loved it, and she thought our being there was tearing it down and ruining it. She said she was feeling a lot of anger and we should leave. IYF: Did you respond? RAW: Before I could a young dyke spoke up and asked her: "If you saw a black person on the land and said, 'I'm feeling all this racism,' would you expect them to leave to make you feel better? No, you'd say, 'This is my feeling that I have to deal with.'" IYF: What actually happened to get you to this point? RAW: About a dozen of us set up in Son of Camp Trans on Thursday. Then Friday at noon, 25 or 30 supporters -- lezzie boyz, Avengers, leatherwomen -- showed up to escort us over to the Main Gate. We identified ourselves as transgender at the Ticket Office and asked to be admitted. They sold us tickets, and we all marched in. For the entire mile and a half into the Festival, two women marched with us yelling "Men on the land!" at the top of their lungs every couple of minutes, the warning that usually goes out when male workers have to come in to empty the Janes or make deliveries. It was unnerving, especially when we got to the main food area and everyone starting turning around and staring. Remember, this is a festival of about 7,000 women. Things seemed to be going okay for awhile, then I turned around and a half dozen of the Avengers and friends were in tears, standing shoulder-to-shoulder with the pre-operative MTF Avengers from Chicago and about fifty women who were confronting them, yelling and very angry. That confrontation just got larger -- it grew to about 200 women -- and we eventually moved it into one of the main food tents. A discussion ensued that went from 6 pm to 8:30 Friday evening. People were very, very angry, and others were just as angry that we were being verbally assaulted and that anyone who identified as a women would be asked -- or forced -- to leave. We finally asked for an escort to get out safely after darkness fell. The next day 5 coordinators came out to Camp Trans and in some lengthy negotiations asked us to ask the pre-op woman and the post-op FTM to voluntarily leave, which they did. By then there was a workshop on transinclusion scheduled at noon inside. They asked me to voluntarily postpone my workshop until we could talk, and I refused. My position was that we were in a crisis, standing in the middle of the road, trying to resolve it on a Saturday morning because Lisa Vogel hadn't wanted to talk to us during the 8 years since Nancy was evicted and there was no reason to believe she wanted to talk to us now. I added that if they formally asked me to leave, of course I would; otherwise, I was going to do the workshop as scheduled. Then there was another meeting at Camp Trans later at 3:30 that the popular punk group, Tribe-8, had called for, and a final one in the community area at 5. It was another sign of change. None of the older artists have ever commented on the Festival's discriminatory policy. But a young group like Tribe-8, which was there to play, was willing to call themselves transgender, promote the issue from the stage during their set, and coordinate a town meeting on it out at Camp Trans. By Saturday evening I'd been in the Festival more or less continuously for 36 hours, I'd been seen all over. There were dozens of Menace tee-shirts everywhere, and it was clear that we had enough support to stay. IYF: Do you think this is a closed issue? RAW: No. There is tremendous anger and also tremendous hurt among many attendees. Remember, this Festival is the largest of its kind, and almost the oldest, and in 25 years it hasn't often been challenged openly like this. It will take a lot of dialog and many years to settle this. But I think, or at least I sincerely hope, that any transexual woman who wants to attend will now be able to attend openly and know that she is welcome -- if not by the owners -- then at least by many attendees. IYF: But you said the Festival policy hadn't changed? RAW: No, It hasn't. But they've also made it clear that they will not challenge any women who shows up and wants to enter. In fact, they claim that that was their policy all along. IYF: Then why do the action at all? RAW: Because I will not enter the festival under false pretenses. I was accused of not caring enough to simply shut up and "pass." I think maybe the reverse is true: I care too much about this Festival and this policy to simply shut up and "pass." IYF: Isn't that asking for confrontation? RAW: One woman asked me what kind of reaction I wanted from attendees and I answered, "Boredom." We didn't ask for this. If Lisa Vogel would be willing to talk to us, I'm on the next plane out to Michigan. This is not the way feminist process is supposed to work, but with the MWMF owners pressing the issue so far, it appears to be the only way to get them to deal with us. IYF: Why not just respect the policy? RAW: Because for me it's unfair and discriminatory. MWMF doesn't get to have what amounts to a public event for thousands of women and then set the rules for who they count as woman-enough to attend and which bodies they're comfortable enough with. IYF: Then why not just take them to court? RAW: The point isn't force, it's winning over hearts and minds. And if we don't have the support, we lose. But I think we do have the support. IYF: Why? RAW: Because, after that huge, angry confrontation Friday night in the food area, with women walking by literally screaming "penises off the land!" and "men get out!," nothing much happened. IYF: Meaning...? RAW: Meaning there was the random rude comment, but that was about it. Look, If the separatists had had the numbers and the support, that energy would have grown and built momentum. That didn't happen. By Saturday night, all I was getting were dirty looks and the odd nasty comments, like someone calling me "asshole" as I was listening to music at the Night Stage and one nice gray-haired lady inviting me to step in front of her truck on the main road. But the energy didn't build, it dissipated. I think in a hundred little conversations a kind of consensus emerged among the average attendees that transexual women should be welcome. And by Sunday morning scores of women were going out of their way to make me feel welcome -- stopping me on the paths, saying "glad you're here," "it's about time," "thanks for finally coming," and so on. IYF: Did you feel lonely? RAW: In ways. But something interesting happened. First of all, I never felt really safe enough to travel alone, so every time I went anywhere I'd travel with an escort. But that was never a problem. There were always a handful of people in every area who were willing and ready to act as escort. They'd kind of hand me off from group to group like a baton! I spent a lot of time being led around by, say, some 18-year-old from Seattle for my safety. The Avengers were all over. By Saturday evening there were Menace tee-shirts in almost every area of the festival and then there were so many women who reached out to welcome me as they walked by. So I felt very afraid, but never really alone. And a second thing happened. Other people started getting hassled. Several members of the Festival staff who were tall and rangy were asked to leave by attendees who assumed they were transexual women! And anyone wearing a Menace tee-shirt or any tall and rangy women -- and there were a lot -- were apt to be asked if they were "one of those" and to be challenged. Suddenly no one was above suspicion. The owners actually had to put out a statement asking festi-goers not to question anyone's gender. IYF: This must have upset a lot of women. RAW: More than one woman accused us of breaking the trust that MWMF depends on -- that being 'everyone here is a woman.' But the truth is, there have always been intersexuals, FTMs, lezzie boyz, and trans- women on the land; it's just that no one felt safe to be so openly. The trust was really more like "don't ask, don't tell," meaning you can trust that no one in the shower is a homosexual because no one is allowed to tell you they're a homosexual. This is strange policy for a feminist space. IYF: So are threats of violence. RAW: And so are threats of violence. In fact, the violence that was threatened was all directed at us, particularly at the Avengers, and at the other two transpeople. Violence, real or threatened, has always been a part of the fabric of MWMF, it just isn't talked about. For instance, S/M and leatherwomen flock to Michigan, but they stay way off in the "Twilight Zone" area by themselves. Why? Because they don't like the main areas? No, because for the fifteen years they've been flocking to the Festival a woman in leather and chains still isn't safe walking around the festival alone. One leatherwoman testified at my workshop that when she'd tried to hold an S/M-positive workshop, women had thrown stones at them! IYF: Do you think it was really appropriate for a pre-op MTF and a post-op FTM to enter the grounds? RAW: I don't think operative status and what's between one's legs has anything to do with it. Or should, since that's also a class and race and health issue. I'm personally tired of pre-op MTFs being stigmatized for still having 'the magic wand.' In the first Camp Trans, the argument wasn't just between us and the festival telling us we weren't really women. It was also between the post-ops in camp telling the pre-ops they weren't real women! As for FTMs, I'm also tired of having another young dyke who comes out about taking her first hormone shot and immediately getting bounced out of every women's group she belongs to. We have to stop this intolerance around gender. IYF: But don't you have to draw the line somewhere, and if so, where? RAW: I don't know that there is a satisfactory answer to that. However comforting it might be to believe otherwise, bodies are very unstable foundations on which to build identities. The best I can come up with is similar to what we suggested to the Gay Games '94, that the Festival should welcome anyone who lives, or has lived, their normal daily life as a woman. That would include FTMs and many transexual women. IYF: Then why the "legally female" strategy? RAW: I thought it was something the owners might agree with, which would make us both equally unhappy. They could defend themselves to the separatists by saying that they weren't letting in anyone who was legally male and couldn't really turn away anyone who was legally female. This would have meant that transwomen who were far enough along in their transition to have F on their ID, whether they'd had or could have surgery, could enter. It also meant that FTMs who hadn't gone far enough into their transition to have an M on their ID could enter. It might have been a good compromise, but I think it's dead for the time being. IYF: Are there circumstances under which you could honestly identify as a woman-born woman? RAW: No, not the way Michigan means it. In fact, not at all. In a way, I'm a bad example here, because I only identify as a Riki-born-Riki. It might have made our case stronger if I could stand up and say that I've always been a woman inside, that I feel like a woman. But I can't. I don't even know what those words mean, and even if I did, I don't want to put myself into one of those boxes. IYF: So you don't identify as a transexual woman? RAW: No. I don't identify as transgender or transexual anymore, although I know the Festival sees me as such and I will answer to those names when it means struggling for gender rights. It is so diminishing to think that my primary social identity is based on what clothes I put on and how my genitals are shaped. I'm getting to the point where I actually find it painful to have someone call me these identity-based names. IYF: Then why go to a specifically women's event? RAW: Two reasons. The first is a trans-identified woman I hardly know, who, when I was wrestling with whether or not to do a camp trans this year said, 'that's another part of my life I've never lived." I asked her what she meant and she said, "There's an entire life I've missed - - groups I didn't go to, women's concerts I didn't attend, lesbian events I never showed up at. I told myself I was too busy or I didn't really want to go but the truth was I knew I'd be pretty unwelcome and so I stayed home alone. It's a whole un-lived life well, that's my story in a nutshell. The next day I posted the announcement about Son of Camp Trans. The second reason is that, in a binary world, I have to make choices. On the way home, I had to use the bathroom in the Detroit Airport. I had to chose Men's or Women's, there's no third way. And all I know, all I can say with my heart, is that in such a world women's spaces are a place I feel that I belong. Whether I qualify, whether I was or should have been born anything, is up to others to decide. All I can do is make my case, put myself out there, and see what happens. IYF: You say 'up to others,' but aren't you really forcing yourself on the festival? RAW: More than one woman accused us of that, but I don't think that's really true. You can't win an action like this with force. Quite the contrary -- all you can do is bring an issue to public consciousness. From then on you're really dependent upon the group conscience to make the right decision or not. If the mass of attendees really don't want me there, if no one calls on me in workshops, if I can't get served in the food area, and no one talks to me and no one will camp near me, then I'm toast. I'm out'a there. But that's not what happened, and not what I think is going to happen in the future. I think gender-variant women are here to stay -- out, loud, and proud -- because the average festi-goer wants us there and is showing solidarity. IYF: What do you think will happen in the future? RAW: I'll be interested to see. Even though it looks like transexual woman can enter openly, the Chicago Avengers are talking about calling for another Camp Trans next year, the Festival's 25th anniversary, and really maxing it out, trying to get a hundred people or so. As for myself, I'm hoping Nancy Jean and Janis will attend next year and enter openly. It would be a wonderful gesture, and some kind of closing of the circle. Folks who want to stay tuned can watch the web-site, www.camptrans.com, for developments. We're adding new chat areas and beefing it up already. The young women who fought this struggle were amazing. Most of Camp Trans attendees were standing in the road with the 5 festival coordinators Saturday morning trying to work everything out, and the tension was high, and we were wracking our brains about how to find the young MTF who was pre-op and on the land. And in the midst of all this, she comes out alone a few minutes later, walks up to us, completely oblivious to what's going on, and asks these women "does anyone have a razor? I need to shave and I think I left mine in back in Chicago." The 5 coordinators just turned and looked at us like "what on earth as we supposed to say to this?" and we just burst out laughing. You just can't plan these moments. But this is a person without shame about her body or her gender, who's completely bypassed all the shame and self-hate I marinated in for 10 or 15 years while people argued about and yelled at and politicized my body. We have a lot to learn from these kids. They rule. And they're going to take this gender thing a lot farther than we dreamed possible.